ETLB Squawk Forums — Archive

hi everybody,
i will soon fly my new minimax 1600 with a rotax 447 here in france and i'm looking for advices to do it as best i can.
if i can have some advices on speeds(approach,landing, take off,and everything),use of flaps, and all about you guys think i must know before first fly!
thanks a lot

greg

Try and make your fist flight off of grass, do an extra good before  flight inspection then ask an other pilot to look the plane over, try for no wind flying conditions, go early in the morning, pay attention to tire pressure 10psi. Bring a camera so you can take a picture of the biggest grin you will ever have with the exception of your wedding night. I'm sure I missed something that the rest of the guys will chime in on. Plan the flight and fly the plan. Now go have fun.

Hi Greg, Thats good advice from Aeronut, I would only add, don't try to be too ambitious on your first flight. Have a couple of goals in mind, and stick to them. I first flew my Max 21 years ago, and I remember it well.

Have a great time.

also know the area and all your outs. know every place in the pattern where you would go in the event of an engine out. then if something does happen you already know exactly where to go and don't have to try and decide then. go over every inch of the flight and all possible scenarios in your head and try to plan for everything. you should have flown that flight 10,000 times in your head 1,000 different ways before your tires ever leave the ground. by that point everything will be automatic. i would do my first approach at 55-60 and come in high and fast and always ready to do a go around. not sure the length of your runway, my home grass strip is 1600 feet and i did a go around on my first landing attempt and for several others also till i got to know the plane better. much better to have to float down a long runway or do a go around and try again then possibly risk getting to slow. too fast or too high much easier to recover from then too slow or too low. also like aeronut said, inspect it, inspect it again then have several other pilot friends inspect it, can never get too many inpsections. the other thing is make sure you have someone else there with a radio and pen and paper to take down notes of anything you find during that flight but try to not have a big audeince that might raise the anxiety level. now after saying all of that the biggest piece of advice i can give is enjoy it, it is a memory you will have forever and my maiden flight sticks with me as much as my first solo during my training. and post us pics!!!!!!!!!

I would add something as well, I dont know how long your runway is but I would do some taxing and see how it handles on the ground before I ever lift off.  'then when you lift off fly low along the runway seeing how it handles before going sky high.  On a short runway you don't have a lot of time for that though.  Your plane will be far more reactive on concrete which means it reacts faster, that is why everyone has recommended grass, I do as well.   Then apply the earlier said advice about flying the pattern and flying low and do a go around on your first approach.  

do you have any taildragger training is an important question?

Dave

Probably a good idea not to use any flaps at first. Keep the speed up on final when you cut the power just before the flair for landing the airplane slows very quickly because it is light and has lots of drag; you go from flair to on the ground very quickly. We want pictures of that grin and you get bonus points if pretty girls are included.

yes ,i have a tail dragger training,but my field is very short:800 feet... ,and i have done taxing, it seems really much easier than all i 've ever tryed ,my questions are most for landing, do i have to use the flaps and how? what speed for short landing,etc...
for sure i will do a go around or two or three if i need.

I honestly have never landed my plane with flaperons deployed, next time I am out I will see if it makes much difference, I know flaps do, but I figured flaperons really would just push the nose down a little.

dave

When I asked TEAM about landing with flaps, many years ago, they suggested not to use them. I think they used the flaps to meet a goal of a 28mph stall speed. If someone knows different please speak up.

This is what I did. But I was flying a Tandem Airbike. Wrapped both thighs with white tape over my blue jeans. One leg I wrote info out of my flight manuel, stall speed, approach speed ETC, ETC, ETC. Other leg I wrote each test I was going to perform. Velcro & tie a couple of sharpies you can grab, fill in the blanks as you go. Climb to a safe altitude, pratice landing at a set altitude say 2000 AGL then 1500 AGL that way you will know what to expect. If you're still not comfortable come in hot a couple of times but don't land. You can see how it performs until you can make that 800 ft. Good Luck & keep it safe. OOW

From my fresh experience
- I tested the engine on the ground for full RPM seing EGT and CHT and measuring the thrust it can provide. So I made sure that I did everything possible to avoid engine failure.
- Dont do touch and goes. Thats the biggest stress for the engine. It will rise up tail around 40 km/h (twenty something mph) and youll be able to gett off from the ground around 55-60 km/h (40 mph). Than make sure you get some more speed, dont try to pull her up very fast in the sky.
- Max is not a brick, but decends quickly. My approach speed is between 80-90 km/h ( 50-55mph) dont get below 50mph.
- 800 ft runway is enough, but no room for error and definately not too long for deadstick approach. I did my first flight on grass 2400 ft runways, that way you can land twice if something goes wrong.  Now I fly from 1500 ft runway, but you still need to plan your approach very carefully if that area is hilly, populated or in a forest. Actually I still consider to land on open agro fields than go back to the airport in case of engine failures. I am still practicing for my 900 ft runway on this longer one.
- very slight headwind will help you better than absolute nil wind.
- I have a himax, no flaps, no problem if you dont use them.
- make sure you are patient enough to land to bleed your speed off.

Oh ya. Have someone to film or photo all this and share with us, but dont try to bother with the camera yourself !

since its a new max and you are unfamiliar with it will have to establish its reaction times.  I don't know about anybody else but when I took my checkride for my pilots license I hd to be able to stop in 600ft or I would have failed my checkride and that was with a 15mph direct crosswind.  I took that in a challenger II but once you get the feel of your max you can land it in a pretty short distance as long as you have your appoach down.  My gps says my approach is usually 55 but my ASI shows 70.  I usually have some kind of wind around here.

I am told that you arent suppose to slip a max I hope some of the other guys can speak to this point, so far I haven't done it.

Dave

Flygreg,

here is a video of my maiden flight.

http://youtu.be/j55yNufto2M
I slipped the max all the  time
hope this helps, Have fun and be safe.
Pictures and video's
if you have  a lot of people around ,go by your gut feelings on things not what you think they want to see.
David Cooper

I slipped himax last time, there was no problem. But I am all ear to hear others why not and what if your too high. But thats not for the maiden flight subject.

I was told the tail wsnt designed strong enough to handle it safely, that i why I put the comment in about the slipping, because I think it s fun and sometimes its necessary on a short field.

dave

Plenty of good advise up there.
My case is similar to yours, 1600R with  Rotax 447 and 550 lbs take off weight on the first flight.
Airplane jumped up in the air as soon as she left the ground. Extremely docile with the control, a joy to fly, landing...... a piece of cake if you have practice fast taxi tests.
My runway is 1000 ft but no obstacles either side, long enough.  I came in fast and still had lots of runway left, you shouldn´t have problems with that.
Watch my first flight  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us4fW7nR2nA

I dont know about designed strength but if you have an engine failure above short field and no way to do 360 the only option you have is slip. If it handles +4G and -3G, it should be no problem with controlled 80-90 km/h - its a lot better option than dive with crazy speed than it soars for ever above ground and bet you will have too much adrenaline to sort that out well.
Thats still better than to do a tailwind landing.
It slips anyhow like hell even if you just think about rudder Thats what old Kitfox did, and than they added 2 ft fuselage and stability increased.

It would be nice to clear whats the truth about this since I believe its a vital skill to land short.

Have anyone tested low speed slip in high altitude? Will it go into spyro ? How fast is recovery ?

my runway is 800feet but no obstacles either side,just fields and fields ,so in case of engine failure i will just go straight and say hello to the farmer...
i did not build the plane, just renew it, change bolts and nuts,engine overhaul. i did taxing yesterday and something afraid me: the rear locking pins of the wings have moved!!! so i will replace them with AN4 bolts and nuts as i don't need to remove the wings.
and here is a pic of my new baby.

nice looking plane and sounds like a great area for your flight test program to have many options to put down at. i also don't plan to remove my wings so i went for the an4 bolts right from the begining to give myself a more secure feeling. i also went with drilled bolts and castle nuts with cotter pins to feel even more secure but that just my preference. can't wait to hear about that first flight

Nice looking plane........can't wait for that first flight.

I have the pins in the back of my wings but I have the front bolted solid, I have not noticed any movement at all.  Mine had been drilled out for AN 5 bolts so that is what I put in it.  It works great and there is enough pressure on them they won't come out, and I have AN nuts on the back as well.  I have to admit yours is prettier than mine. If I ever recover my whole plane I am going to change it to the 1600r look I like it better.

Beautiful !!! Cant wait to hear your first flight news !

Today I did some measured flights  making 100 meter marks on the airports. I am up in the air in less than 100 meters and you are at about 8 m height on 200, and more than 20 at 300. You ll need to be at least 100 m height at 500-600 m from your landing point to do it without engine.  If you slip it , it decends with more than 3m/sec at 90 km/h speed. I did not discover any sort of discomfort or stress for slipping it.

thanks a lot to you all for those answers.i'm waiting for the good condition to fly, and of corse i will send news to this forum. but now we have to wait for two or three bad weather days...sad...
maybe one of you can send me a digital copy of the flight manual?

i forgot,if someone have the flight manual,my mail is: flygreg2001@yahoo.fr
thanks

Flygreg:
I just sent you a copy.

thanks a lot ricardo, i've carefully read the manual and normaly the first fly will be tomorrow morning if all is ok after a long flight inspection and engine test !!!

It will be much nicer than what you expect!
Good luck and keep those tires with low pressure (6-8 psi)

WE havent heard any flight results, how is going out there flygreg?

Hope he's not in the trees.... Hey GREG!  Where are you?