ETLB Squawk Forums — Archive

I did a bad landing,went off runway,  ground looped  causing a broken prop, broken wing tips, some cowling scratches, pilot OK. I fill very dumb....
Does any one have a prop on sale for Rotax 447?  

Glad you OK Ricardo...we have all done it with some different results.

I wish you speedy repairs and hope you get back on the horse again as soon as possible......I did mine in front of the flying instructor..!!! about a year after the flying lessons were finished...That made me feel dumb too...and after a change of underwear and some tape on the wing (dragging a wingtip is not a good Idea)..I was off again. I have never forgotten the feeling of being a passenger in my own plane...so now every landing is 110% concentration...even in perfect weather, because you dont know if your tyre has gone flat...which also happened another day..with good piloting I was fine.

Im certain it will never happen again...

cheers Arthur

Ricardo, please do not beat up on yourself too much. Most everyone has a trouble now and again. I hope you are able to get back in the air very soon.

Any landing that you walk away from, is a good one. Some are just more expensive than others. I'm very glad that you are unhurt.

Oh Ricardo, soo sorry to learn of your landing mishap.  I can just imagine your colorful langauage when realizing you no longer were in control of the plane and knew the inevitable was going to happen. I, like others on this board, have been there too.

Analyze the damage, asess what needs to be done to make repairs, then get started on it. Being a ground-pounder is no fun.  You need to be airborne again---soon.

Paul D. Fiebich

Glad you're ok - that's what really matters! Machines can be fixed or replaced.
I put a 172 in trees a few years ago (carb ice just after liftoff) so I certainly know what it's like to have an accident, and how hard we can be on ourselves. Don't let it get you down!

Just finished today to evaluate the damages  . More than I thought . Pictures are elocuent.
I a made a terrible mistake, 100% my fault for not being consistent.
This is the story: I always do two wheel landings because  cross winds are normal on this runway, I have better control that way. Last few days I was practicing 3 point landings, with very nice results, but last Friday night the weather was very extrange, winds were 10 -12 mph cross winds, very unusual at that time of the afternoon. I was going to fly over the river but the flight wasn´t to nice, the plane was difficult to keep it leveled, it was bumpy and unpleasent, I changed my mind for a flight over the ocean  where air is always smooth. After a nice flight on that area I went back over dry land where the ride was mix good and bad, I also noticed the plane was flying very sideways (ball in the middle) due to a strong wind, my first landing approach was a call off, I've done this only once on my first Minimax flights, I was coming too fast and past half runway I was still on air. Second approach was more conservative, a longer approach, fine over the wires, flare for a three point landing attempt....soft landing, slowing down and....oh  sh.. left wing up..plane going left....no response..then and I made a very dumb desition...I'm getting out of here!  Full power! but there was no more clear land ahead of the plane, it was too "off course" also very little speed and pum! prop smashed the small tangerine trees, wings hit other small trees and the plane stopped.  I think the speed at the time was less around  30 mph because the plane never left the ground.
I never looked at the windsock on the other  end of the runway but still visible, everything looked normal. After the ground loop starter I should have let it go, I'm sure nothing would have happened because of the low speed and also there's a small water canal next to the runway that would had stopped the free ride.
Why in hell did it occur to me to run away  from the inevitable? Big learnig thou, many  labor hours lie ahead,  money to be spent at difficult times, but I'm Ok, not serious structural damages, and an opportunity for a major overhaul, also change that boring color to something more attractive.... I'll need some advise from you guys when repairs start.
Main concern is engine crankshat. Any thoughts?

The first picture shows the wing root. It doesn't look like anything got pulled apart there--that's good. It also looks like the wing/strut connections are damage free--also good.

Hopefully, things will be less severe than they now seem one the damaged components are removed.

I'm a big fan of warm colors for airplanes.  

Glad you are alright....like the old saying there are 2 types of pilots..those who have had mishaps and those who havent yet.  if you can scrounge up a dial indicator you can maybe get an idea if the crank is bent.  there should be a spec for how many thousands is acceptable. other than that i imagine you would have to tear it down.  does it still turn over pretty easily?

Yes Dale, it does turn easily, I´ll check with a dial indicator if it is within tolerance. Engine has only 40 hours, I hope is still fine-

Hello Ricardo, Im sure the gear box and the prop took the brunt of the prop strike....your engine is probably fine...ask a rotax expert for guidance.

and once you start the repairs with the thought of flying , Im sure it wont be as bad as it seems. I would recomend a good inspection of entire airframe (of coarse)

Low energy landings in bumpy conditions are a No, No , as you have learnt.....those conditions at my airfeild would require a 'fly it on' approach...well above the stall speed.They can be the scariest of landings...as feet and hands are very busy.

Ricardo yours is one of the best Minimax Builds Ive ever seen, your aircraft has done you justice..speedy repairs...I wish I lived close by to assist, or drop in for a coffee to add enthusiasm to your repairs.

Also colour suggestion...its already blue...so another blue would look nice...a 2 tone blue paint job...or simply Blue and white...as similar to Larry Vetters Aircraft which I think looks good.

Glad your safe Ricardo.

regards Arthur

Ricardo your crankshaft is probably ok since you were at a low rpm on landing and that the gearbox has a clutch that will slip at high loads. your repairs don't look structurally bad.

monte

Thank you guys for the encouraging and warming words. Not that that I feel exactly like Payton Manning right now (what a nightmare!) but it feels so good to have good friends behind.  Some of you probably know that my  flying activity is very lonely, the construction, the flying, the maintenance and now the repairs, so I share all these moments and feelings with the ETLB family, it shows why I post maybe a little too much, but it just made my dream possible and keeps it very well alive.

Ricardo, that damage is significant and will keep you grounded for several months.  Your flight experience with this partial ground loop and off-runway excuresion adds to your experience.   Sure glad you weren't hurt.

You have already started the first emotional repair, it comes along with assessing the damage in view of how much work is ahead of you. It is unfortunate that there are no fliers around you to provide support, so with that thought, keep positing as you have on the board.  We actually all belong to one large, diverse family that cares about its members. As our Canadian backwoods comedian to the north always says at the end of his show "I'm pullin' for you".  We all are.

Paul Fiebich

Sorry about your misfortune Ricardo, many of us have been through similar situations.  I sometimes say I'm almost an Ace now because you had to destroy 5 airplanes to be an ace and I'm over half way there.  Of course it's supposed to be the other guys plane that's getting wrecked.  At any rate, things I would look at very closely with the plane is the wing attach points, lift strut attach points, and the engine.  Because the crankshaft of the engine is pressed togeather parts, it can turn within itself and then it will not be running true.  That would mess up the bearings or crankcase down the road with bad results.  The local shop that I've had all my 2 stroke engine work done at all ways measures the crankshaft to be sure it's running true and straightens them if they need it.  Of course that means a complete teardown, but you end up with new seals and a complete decarbon job on the pistons and rings.  A composite prop is likely to put more shock to the crankshaft then a wood one, so I would advise getting the crank checked.  Just looked at the prop and pics again, and it looks like you only messed up one blade.  In your description of what happened, you said you went to full power to get out of there, and then hit the brush.  If you were at full or nearly full power, and stopped the prop in a half revolution (or less) that would have put lots of stress on the engine/gearbox and crankshaft.  I would get it all looked at real good.  Sorry to sound negative, but I know what it's like to have the engine quit in the air and not have any good options for landing.  One thing to focus on now though, is that you don't have to heal before you start the repair work, and it IS all repairable.  And those are both very good things!  Jim Chuk

Hi Ricardo;
I am so very sorry to hear of your experience. Like was said, most important is that you are OK. The plane can be fixed. You have had a wonderful time flying it so you know when you get it done you will be able to continue enjoying your beautiful workmanship. Like they say, "stuff" happens. The most important thing is we learn from our experiences. I think that is what is called "wisdom". The older we get the more wisdom we get. Because of my age, I must have a load of wisdom, LOL.
All that said, I agree with Jim Chuck. Have your crank checked out. Take it out of the engine to do it too. I used to own a Kawasaki dealership. I have seen lots of twisted cranks. They run for a while, but will always fail. I am not trying to scare you either, just be safe and check it out. Make sure you keep us all informed on your progress. So, get to work and get this little beauty back in the air. We are all with you bud.
Bob

Ricardo,
Sorry to hear, or read about your bad day. Like others have said at least your ok and were not hurt, and the airplane is repairable.
I kind of did the same type of thing on my very first flight. My second landing attempt turned me sideways on the runway and I ended up in a snow bank. Not much damage at all, but if I had tried to go around I would have faired much worse....Anyway, Check all of it over really well just to make sure there isn't damage somewhere you have not yet found.

Always enjoyed your pictures and flying stories.

I hope you will be back in the air sooner than you think.

Larry

Hi Ricardo,
I understand you keep pushing yourself when it comes to airmanship and glad you're alright. All airframe parts are repairable not as
human parts which I am now in healing stage from gall bladder removal operation.
Wished you goodluck and safe flying ahead.

Keep safe,
Phil

Glad you are ok. Planes can be repaired easier than human's can. And the bad memories will fade in time. I showed my ground loop off to a crowd at an AIRSHOW where most everyone was a pilot or airplane nut. Nothing damaged then but my pride.........Rebuild and get back in the air so we can enjoy the great pictures you post.

This is the video of the final  moments.
You may notice at the end, after the plane leaves the runway, that the prop speeds up. I made the wrong desition to fly away from the ground loop when the plane  was still on the runway but the prop response is much later making the impact with trees more severe.
It  shows how late an engine reacts compare to the distance traveled.

Note: This video is private, it means that is not listed with my other videos. I didn't want non-aviator friends or family to watch it so the only way to get to it is by going directly to this link. You may share it with you friends if you wish.
http://youtu.be/z1sAMHhc1s8

Thanks for sharing the video Ricardo.....its just a shame it happened. No Judgement here, I wish you well on fixing your dream aircraft.

regards Arthur

What is done is water over the dam. We can not change what is history. The lesson that has been learned has value but we must move on. Do a good assessment of the damage and make a list of the steps needed to make your bird airworthy again then start to check off the items on the list. I have been in your position and I know how hard it is to get started again so you have my every sympathy.

Check the spar very carefully.  I seem to remember a guy in Texas who lost a wing in flight due to previous damage that wasn't checked and repaired?

Ricardo, I am sorry to hear this but you are a very good and clever guy, it does not look so bad. My feelings after watching this several times is that your speed was not too much, than the small tree really act as dumper so, I dont think you have will have problem with your spar or with the crank but yes for sure check them out well.

There are only two kind of pilots. One who has broken a propeller and who will after this.
Minor accidents like this is a better school than anything else.

I got lucky on mine and only drove the tailspring thru the elevator......
Brakes saved me from smashing the fence.....  
I stopped about a foot short of the fence with the engine off....
PUCKER!

The cause, tailspring broke in half.....

Thanks for sharing the video.
That's a beautiful country you have there!

Keep us posted with the progress on repairs. As a newer member of this forum and a relatively low time pilot, I will be keenly interested.

Ricardo I had a ground loop on my very first flight (Rudder tail wheel not rigged properly), had some minor damage but with Bob Hoskins help got her ready to go again so I know about support.  I really hope you get her going again real soon.

  Phil, didn't know you were recovering from surgery, get well soon.

There is an article on ground loops on the EAA's website : http://www.EAA.org/experimenter/articles/2010-11_bass.asp

After a detail review on the entire plane, accident damages are few and don't compromise anything serious, however repairs are new to me.
Areas afected are:
1.-Left wing has a broken rib (third rib starting from wing end) with small separation, it didn't afect the spar.
2.-Right wing end has a broken ply that covers wing end, ply around last two ribs is also broken but  only top side. No spar damage.
3- Small aileron cloth damage.
I was able to look inside the wing and everything else was in very good shape.
I like to hear some suggestions on how to deal with fabric on both  damages.
Left wing: Acces to fix the  broken rib wing requires opening a larger hole.
Right wing: I need acces to patch the wood. Shall I make a hole on the plywood or cut the fabric along the rib fix the wood and sew a piece of fabric after  repair?   I have enough fabric for repairs but not to cover entire wing.
Thanks for your help!  
Engine is being send to the Rotax man  for reduction  drive inspection and also disassembled to check the crankshaft tolerances  

Right wing damage