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I just read Airbike Ace Paul's latest article in the ultralight magazine.  Something he said has me scratching my head...

He wrote that when flying downwind in a strong wind his Airbike doesn't climb as well as it does going into the wind.  This pretty much goes against everything that I think I know about aeronautics.

An airplane in flight maintains the same airspeed no matter what heading you are flying...the stall speed and the max speed don't change either.  The best rate of climb speed doesn't change and the rate of climb doesn't change.  At least this is what I have been taught and matches what I have observed in my own flying.

What does change when going downwind is the ground speed.  Because the ground speed is greater you end up covering a much greater distance while climbing.  So if you normally can climb to 1000 feet in half a mile flying into the wind then it might take you a mile or more to reach 1000 feet flying downwind.  This can lead to the illusion that the plane isn't climbing as well.

Yes exactly......

Pauls perspective is that of using the ground for reference.... if you use....time...time  will show climb rate will be exactly the same....Its simply physics...so maybe his perspective is of  just covering the ground...?..ie groundspeed.

Ask yourself......theres a couple of sexy ladies in a hot air balloon...(did that grab your attention....ohh they're topless by the way...LOL)...wind is 5 knots on the Saturday...the next day, Sunday....the wind is 25 knots.....the hair on the ladies.....filmed from inside the balloon shows there hair "do's" perfect.......remember they are topless...LOL.....why is it so Professor..?

Quiz time....

and what colour are their eyes.....LOL...or even the colour of their Hair..?

Hmmmm correct answer...is the Balloon has NO airspeed.....but yes the ground speed is 5 knots Saturday...and 25 knots Sunday,,




This "perspective" also kills pilots...in high performance aircraft but thats another discussion

cheers Arthur

Quoted from Arthur Withy

Ask yourself......theres a couple of sexy ladies in a hot air balloon...(did that grab your attention....ohh they're topless by the way...LOL)...wind is 5 knots on the Saturday...the next day, Sunday....the wind is 25 knots.....the hair on the ladies.....filmed from inside the balloon shows there hair "do's" perfect.......remember they are topless...LOL.....why is it so Professor..?

I think I could answer this question better if you include a picture of the balloon and passengers!

Just think about how many people read that article and now believe airplanes climb better when flown into the wind than downwind. Soon they will be at their airports spreading this new acquired knowledge to others and they will have a reference to back it up because it was written in the magazine by a real veteran and surely they wouldn't print something like that if it wasn't true .
Soon you will start running into them ,
And so a new Aviation Urban Legend myth is born, because you will never get that Genie back into the bottle, Just like the downwind turn demon never dies.

George I think you are correct; but I also think that the down wind turn thing has lead to more than a few stall spin accidents. I would present the following as an example. We are flying a champ and returning from a trip it is mid-morning and while we were away the wind has come up and is blowing about 15mph with gusts to 25mph but it is ok cause it is general right down the runway. It will be a walk in the park. We set up our down wind as normal and we start our turn to base, remember it is gusty rough air. As we come out of our turn to base we realize that we are a lot farther from the end of the runway than usual but that is ok cause there is plent of time to make the turn to final and reach the end of the runway. As we are turning onto final we are little low to reach the runway and as we get lower the air gets rougher so we flat-in the turn and try to push the airplane around with rudder.We look at the end of the runway and we can not get there from here so we add throttle and pull the nose up. We are about 400' from the ground when the event happens and they find us 300' from the end of the runway pointed in the opposite direction with the tail pointing at the sky. Yup stall spin. I agree that it was miss use of the flight controls that lead to the stall spin not the wind. But the wind did help to cause the accident by providing an unusual conception of where we were with regard to the position of the air plane in the pattern..  

After reading the downwind response by Charlie Radford and George Sychrovosky to my Plan B article in Powered Sport Flying magazine, I would invite both of you to help scrape the egg off my face.

Both of you are correct in your statements about my incorrect observation that my plane didn't climb very well when going downwind. It is purely an illusion as Charlie stated because one simply covers more ground when climbing with a tailwind and it appears as though the climb rate is lower. I was wrong. I knew that but got faked out.

George's point is well taken, I, inadvertently added to what is already an apparent urban flying legend. Realizing that the genie can never be put back in the bottle is unfortunate. However, comments such as you two have made will have an effect on those who read this thread.

That, however, reaches only a small audience. I must reach the same audience that read the magazine article. To do that, I will write the editor with a correction and ask that it be published in the next issue.

I won't make this type of mistake again, I hope.

Below is the magazine cover and opening page, the rest of the article can be read on my Facebook page  https://www.facebook.com/paul.fiebich?ref=bookmarks

Paul D. Fiebich

Quoted from fiebichpv
That, however, reaches only a small audience. I must reach the same audience that read the magazine article. To do that, I will write the editor with a correction and ask that it be published in the next issue.

Sounds like a good "Plan B"!

Quoted from fiebichpv To do that, I will write the editor with a correction and ask that it be published in the next issue.

Paul D. Fiebich

Outside of this forum, I have met only one person who is memorable for having never made a mistake, at least in his own mind.

One realizes one's mistake; one acknowledges that mistake and does one's best to correct it; time for one to move on.

Good response there, Paul.

Happy flying.  

Aeronut: I do not disagree with your description of what sometimes happens during turn from base to final, but that is an upwind turn, not a downwind turn. Just sayin'.

As I have understood the issue, the classic killer downwind turn more often involves Arthur's nude babes sunbathing on the beach where the wind is strong from water to shore, or some similar motivation for an incorrect turn about a point. Of course, maybe the dudes die happy.  

Yup that is correct but it is the turn from down wind to base that is the beginning of the end in my example. The turn from base to final is a product of the turn from down wind to base being late and puts the turn from base to final too far away from the end of the runway. You realize it and hence the back stick and addition of power to reduce the sink rate in a crossed control condition. It is all an illusion to the short time pilot and the wind is what is causing the illusion.   I  think.

"Ask yourself......theres a couple of sexy ladies in a hot air balloon...(did that grab your attention....ohh they're topless by the way...LOL)...wind is 5 knots on the Saturday...the next day, Sunday....the wind is 25 knots.....the hair on the ladies.....filmed from inside the balloon shows there hair "do's" perfect.......remember they are topless...LOL.....why is it so Professor..?"

Arthur,
That's a ridiculous scenario.
If the ladies are topless, how do you know if their hair do's are perfect? How do you know the aren't bald?  

well the hair is perfect........ as you can see......

Well that is some fine hair!

Hey that's my wife...I wondered what she was up to.  

Monte

This topic is one of the favourites with aeromodellers and full scale flyers and never has there been a convincing end to this discussion .

The picture being a case in point.

Suppose you tie a string to the tail wheels of two airbikes or minimaxes your choice in a 50mph gale while holding on to the strings and convince them to fly off in
opposite directions at an IAS of 50 mph and close your eyes or kep them open if you wish  as soon as they start moving.
Now dont leave the strings and open your eyes if you closed them in the first place after one minute.Now look at one airbike and then at the other.
One airbike will be at 1000 feet exactly above your head which will strain your neck with the string pointing vertically.
The other one should also be at 1000 feet in the opposite direction but 4400 feet away and the string will be at a much shallow angle.

This is no illusion.I think airbike ace has a point there and he knows what he is talking about.

KK

Quoted from mullacharjak This topic is one of the favourites with aeromodellers and full scale flyers and never has there been a convincing end to this discussion .

The picture being a case in point.

Suppose you tie a string to the tail wheels of two airbikes or minimaxes your choice in a 50mph gale while holding on to the strings and convince them to fly off in
opposite directions at an IAS of 50 mph and close your eyes or kep them open if you wish  as soon as they start moving.
Now dont leave the strings and open your eyes if you closed them in the first place after one minute.Now look at one airbike and then at the other.
One airbike will be at 1000 feet exactly above your head which will strain your neck with the string pointing vertically.
The other one should also be at 1000 feet in the opposite direction but 4400 feet away and the string will be at a much shallow angle.

This is no illusion.I think airbike ace has a point there and he knows what he is talking about.

KK

I think your example proves Paul's original statement to be incorrect. You say that both Airbikes will be at exactly the same altitude. That indicates that the performance of both Airbikes was exactly the same when measured in feet per minute (rate of climb), which is the measure of the machine within its element.

The strings in your example show the angle of climb, a different measure, which is most certainly effected (or is it affected?) by the wind.

BTW, isn't your Airbike that climbs downwind traveling at 100 mph., or 1.67 miles per minute? In two minutes it will be 3.33 miles away. I think that's 17,533 ft, not 4,400 ft.

And this, my friends, is why some things are a never-ending discussion. I've had to go back and think through downwind turns and turns on a point; that's a good thing.

Have fun and don't get hurt.  

KK you are joking.?  right..?

wow...maybe Im too far south...hmmm

The wing does not see the speed of the wind, only the speed of the relative wind. If a plane climbs at 1,000 fpm at 50 mph IAS, it will do so no matter what direction the wind is blowing.

Flying into a 50 mph wind, the plane will have a ground speed of 0 mph, an airspeed of 50 mph and a ROC of 1,000 fpm.
Flying with a 50 mph wind, the plane will have a ground speed of 100 mph, an airspeed of 50 mph, and a ROC of 1,000 fpm. After 1 minute it would be 8,800 feet away (looks like KK forgot to add in the tail wind).

Hi All;
I have to agree with Ironnerd. The plane doesn't care about the wind WHILE FLYING. Unless, say for instance you are taking off with a 90 deg cross wind. You then get to what ever altitude you want to make your turn out. You make a very tight turn down wind. At that point you can subtract your wind speed from the plans air speed. If it brings you down to your stall speed, guess what. The same scenario, but you make a gentle turn down wind and the plane will maintain airspeed. I have seen this in person! ( no, not personally, LOL) So, no, the wind does not effect the plane flying, but there are circumstances that it can do much harm if not understood.
Bob

Quoted from Bob Hoskins say for instance you are taking off with a 90 deg cross wind. You then get to what ever altitude you want to make your turn out. You make a very tight turn down wind. At that point you can subtract your wind speed from the plans air speed. If it brings you down to your stall speed, guess what. The same scenario, but you make a gentle turn down wind and the plane will maintain airspeed.

You know all is lost when you read a statement like this and it is written by a pilot.

You know george I was waiting for ya, LOL. If you want to prove me wrong why don't you take the Himax you haven't owned in many years and try it.You are the only one on this board who waits in the back round just waiting for something to criticize or have something negative to say! I watched it happen once and he just made it before he hit the tree row. The other is dead! Now, Unless you have personal experience, how about keeping you negative opinions and criticism to your self. I like most are tired of listening to you. OK, lets hear your answer. I am sure it will be entertaining and up to your standards, LOL.
Bob

You know you have my support Bob.


George does get carried away...alot.

regards Arthur

George does get carried away....but he's right this time.

Once you're in the air the plane isn't affected by a steady wind in anyway what so ever.  Wind gusts have an effect but not the steady wind.  I do have a bit of experience, too.

Hey Paul, you'll have to come up with another" Freudian" slip, there hasn't been as much activity on here since Harry Ford went golfing in his PT!!!

Some people simply refuse to grasp the concept of basic physics that  the wind has no effect to the airplane airspeed once the wheels leave the ground regardless of directions or turns . They have a cemetery full of dead pilots who turned downwind stalled out and got killed because they didn't speed up to "catch up with the wind " to prove otherwise.

Long time ago somebody already wrote a great article about exactly this guy Bob Hoskins and the likes of him. Described him down to a T , yet here we are 15 years later still with the same nonsense.

The Last Word on Downwind Turns, Really
Debunking one of aviation's most pervasive myths.

""
I said. "No way. There's no way that a turn downwind, or upwind, or in any other direction, is any different from a turn in still air."

"Well, sonny," said the Old-Timer, "maybe out your way the air's made of different stuff. But I've buried enough pilots to know that in these parts, when that wind comes around an' hits ya from behind, if ya don' have enough of a cushion, you're just gonna stall. There's no two ways about it. lt's just common sense. That wind's gonna hit ya from behind, and that's all she wrote.
""
read the rest here all the way to "slowing the turn"
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilots-places/pilots-adventures-more/last-word-downwind-turns-really

Hi George;
I am so glad you enjoyed ridiculing, degrading, criticizing, and attacking "people like me". Oh, I am sorry, "the likes of me". You are such a nice guy, full of understanding. You always discuss a problem instead of attacking the person or persons. You first of all DO NOT KNOW ME. and thank God will never. You don't know the experience I have or the knowledge of my life journey to 75 years.You my friend, no mater what knowledge you think you have MORE than us. are a nasty mouthed inconsiderate person. And I am trying to be nice here.
Now, For the rest of us, I am trying to caution you about slow, low powered planes making abrupt turns down wind. Every one are right even you george, the wind does not effect the plane under normal circumstances. It will of course effect ground speed. Just think about why it takes longer to take off down wind than with no wind. Then you take off with only a cross wind. That means you don't have a head wind and you make a steep turn down wind. All I am saying is to use caution. There are circumstances that don't react like the book says the should.
Ok George, Have at it. Lets see how far down you can reach. Oh, by the way, there will be no further response from me directed at you. It is a waist of my time and you are not worth my time. So enjoy.
To the rest of you out there, fly safe and enjoy.
Bob

George its not what you say its the way you say it.....which is the issue. Says the likes of me.

ohh and really....my balloon story says it far better and simpler than your nasty attitude..says the likes of me...

There's no wind to a person who travels inside a balloon...says the likes of me....but they do travel

says the likes of me.

PS...flightime ..says the like of me...

ohhh....50 hours in the past 2 months...George do you fly..NOW...

or are you an armchair pilot..and if you dont fly and you dont build, and your not positive....anymore why be here..?

says the likes of me..and yes you have offended me...again.

cheers Arthur.

Quoted from Bob Hoskins Hi All;
say for instance you are taking off with a 90 deg cross wind. You then get to what ever altitude you want to make your turn out. You make a very tight turn down wind. At that point you can subtract your wind speed from the plans air speed. If it brings you down to your stall speed, guess what. The same scenario, but you make a gentle turn down wind and the plane will maintain airspeed.

Quoted from Bob Hoskins You know george I was waiting for ya, LOL. If you want to prove me wrong why don't you take the Himax you haven't owned in many years and try it.
Bob

So I went and did exactly what Bob told me to.
I took off in 20 mph crosswind and climbed at 50 mph like I normally do, then I turned downwind and just as Bob predicted the wind speed subtracted from my plane airspeed down to 30 right to my stall speed , guess what,  I stalled and boom ,now I'm dead, (didn't get  a chance to try the gentle turn - sorry)
End of story.

The good news is - the Downwind Turn Demon lives on.

(edited) I forgot one point, I did sell my HiMax , but I didn't give away my brains with it, I still own enough of that to know how airplanes fly.
And , I still own my MiniMax , you missed that I have built two Max planes not just one .

George must be the messiah   ...hes typing from the grave....all hail the messiah

"Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own." Proverbs 26:17

While I am not sure whether or not I am included in George's insult, I certainly have participated in the conversation, therefore:

It certainly seems that George Sychrovsky enjoys the drama. Now, if I wanted drama and spite I would not need Lonesome Buzzards or anything to do with Ison designs.

Apparently George is spoiled by the safety of distant taunting and insulting that is provided by the internet, but that same internet makes it possible to find anyone. George, be careful who you ridicule in public, there are some really crazy dudes out there.

I am reminded of a Boy Scout trip when everyone was enjoying the time around the campfire until one kid pissed on the fire.