ETLB Squawk Forums — Archive

Hi
A while back I picked up a Hi-Max kit from someone who had started it and stopped, like many others.  Price seemed to be so low as to be silly not to get it.  I've moved the project along, fuselage is completed through paint, now a flat top, now set up for half vw(I just sold the Global that was going on it), first wing is ready for fabric, second wing partially done.  I'm in New England and I mention that as very little happens beyond three or four hundred miles of transporting planes, a buyer would be picking it up.  Does a project at this stage have any value?  I ask as I just picked up an N-3 Pup for almost nothing with the option to get two more for even less, and I probably won't be able to control myself and will probably end up with three Pups.  So my focus will probably shift to the Pups.  Should that be the case, I probably would want to part company with the Max.  Does anyone think it is a marketable commodity?  All comments appreciated.
Kim Brown
New Hampshire

"What Is It Worth" is a question that goes through my mind too.

I finished my 277 Rotax powered 1100R MiniMax 3 years ago, or has it already been 4 years? I've done a lot of taxi time but never flew it. However, a friend of mine has flown it twice and said it flew quite nicely.

Flying has taken a back seat (for now) to hot rods and motorcycles, although I would still want to hang out with the great guys at my local EAA chapter and help out with their events.

So, I have the question too, "what's it worth?", but in my case it's a completed plane.

Lynn

I also have a 1100R with a 447 that I built. I know how much money and time that I have in it; BUT I also know that I will never see the final cost or any labor and it is not for sale. If you go by what David of TEAM is selling or asking for his partially built projects and completed aircraft on his website I think his numbers are ball park starting points. I will probably never sell my airplane cause I hate the idea of someone hurting themselves in the airplane regardless of who's fault it is.Just my idea not worth much in this day and age.

Mine is not for sale but When it goes, I don't expect anybody to get hurt in it. It hasn't managed to kill me so far so it can't be good at it. The financial return on the aircraft is  far less than it cost me and bearing in mind that it costs me $200 an hour to operate, I probably shouldn't do it at all. I would be wealthier if I just gave it away or burned it but I would be so much poorer !

$200 an hour seems like alot.  What kind of plane?

In the past I calculated the cost per hour for an ultralight type plane (based on 100 hours per year) to be on the order of $30-50.  That cost covered hangar rent, gas/oil, and maintenance.

I agree that you can almost never sell a experimental airplane for anything close to what it costs to built one.  For example, I once built an Airbike that I had over $11000 in and sold it several years later for $7500.  

Last year I flew it ten and a bit hours. I fitted a fuel computer,  fan belt and had the pulleys replated, ignition bits and a series of new rev counters. Hangarage $150 a month and insurance $200 for the year. Fuel to get to the airfield $250. Headset and new GPS. $250 Hmm. Nearer $300. That is for a MiniMax.

Well, if you only flew it one hour it would be nearer to $3000 per hour!  And, it you don't fly it at all the cost per hour is "infinity"!

Well, my 'Max costs me £11.and some odd pence a week! £88 per year third party insurance and £50 per month for hangarage. However, I keep finding things to buy for it!

Well, my 'Max costs me £11.and some odd pence a week! £88 per year third party insurance and £50 per month for hangarage. However, I keep finding things to buy for it!

What is your aircraft worth or any other item? It’s worth what someone will pay you for it. I built a Rans S-17 from a kit that cost me $13,000 and sold it for $5000 and only one buyer was interested. I realize that flying is a hobby to me and I do not expect a return on my investment. Not a good investment at all.

Monte

Quoted from Max SSDR Well, my 'Max costs me £11.and some odd pence a week! £88 per year third party insurance and £50 per month for hangarage. However, I keep finding things to buy for it!

Free fuel and oil and never have to overhaul the engine?

Generally, don't expect experimental aircraft  to "hold" their value very well.

Along the same lines, you might be interested to do the calcs to figure the ratio of build time to flying time.

Despite the wildly optimistic claims that used to claim a Max can be built in 300 hours or so, I doubt that many complete theirs in under 1000 hours. Most will take longer than this, I'm guessing. I stopped counting after 2000 hours.

So if you fly 30 hours per year, if you built really quickly, it would take you over 33 years to reach a 1:1 ratio of build-to-fly time. For me, I would need to be flying 30 hours per year at age 132, so it's a fair bet I'm never going to 'break even'    

Lucky I enjoyed the build so much!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce I stopped counting after 2000 hours.

Now, that's got to be a record!

Quoted from radfordc

Free fuel and oil and never have to overhaul the engine?

Depends how you cost aircraft ownership = Static costs exist whether you fly or not. That's what I quoted here, Insurance and hangarage. So your aircraft hourly cost depends on your point of view. I reckon on a monthly or weekly cost; what I have to pay whether I fly or not.

Engine fund here, would be parts cost apportioned to hours. Fuel I reckon on 10 ltrs per hour. In the UK that's around £12.00 per hour plus oil at say 1/20th of a litre - I use chainsaw oil at around £4.00 per litre so £12.80 per hour so I 'say' it's less than £20 per hr to cover engine and spare parts like elevator hinges and other unexpected repairs.

I paid £3500 for the aircraft but probably won't see that back TBH (not the way prices are for SSDR here).

If you start factoring in airframe costs then it gets silly. I owned a Taylorcraft for 23 years. Sold it for a similar amount to what I paid so that was a loss. BUT I flew on average 50 hours a year for those 23 years.

I don't have a pilot's license and I can't pass the medical.  I could hire an instructor to fly me in a rented airplane, but that's nearly $200 per hour and only when he's available.  The initial investment in my Mini-Max, hangar rent and repairs, are expensive but focusing on them is missing the fundamental point:  I'm paying for freedom, to fly when I want to fly.  

Might be every day.  Might be once a summer.  But it's totally up to me when and where I go.  That's why I own the Mini-Max.

Can't put a price on that.

MaxSSDR,

Who does your insurance at 88 quid?

BHPA Antoni. Over 60's discount but first year will be about £100 as it includes the joining fee.